00:00:04:15 - 00:00:30:01 Adam Hocking Welcome to The Rounds, a podcast of Marshfield Clinic Health System. I'm your host, Adam Hocking. The Rounds brings together medical experts to discuss fresh, fascinating and important topics from the world of health care. More than ever, smartphones and with them, the Internet and social media are part of our children's lives. Joining me today to discuss the impact of this digital revolution on children's development and emotional well-being is Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck. 00:00:30:14 - 00:00:44:04 Adam Hocking Dr. Kohlbeck is a child psychologist at Marshfield Clinic. Her work has appeared in such publications as the Journal of Developmental and Behavioral Pediatrics, The Journal of Emotional Abuse and the Journal of Abnormal Child Psychology. 00:00:47:18 - 00:00:49:13 Adam Hocking Dr. Kohlbeck, thank you for joining me today. 00:00:49:15 - 00:00:50:06 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck No problem. 00:00:51:00 - 00:01:14:19 Adam Hocking So a recent study in the Pediatric Clinics of North America showed that since 1970, the age at which children begin to regularly interact with media has shifted from four years to four months. A similar article in that same publication said 95% of teenagers or kids 12 and older are online, with 80% owning a computer and 77% owning a cell phone. 00:01:15:08 - 00:01:26:06 Adam Hocking So not only is this digital media more widespread than ever, but kids are engaging with it sooner than ever. What implications does that have in your mind from a child development perspective? 00:01:27:18 - 00:01:56:11 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck I think it changes the trajectory of child development. I think kids are being exposed to things sooner. They're learning information sooner. So I think it changes the trajectory. You know, when you think of it in a global sense, I don't think it just has negative implications. I think there's a positive piece of exposure to social media, internet, you know, technology. 00:01:57:05 - 00:02:21:12 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck But I also think that there there are also some negative side effects. I think it impacts their social, emotional development in terms of how do they interact and how are they with their peers. I think it impacts social problem solving skills. How to how do I how do I negotiate this conflict with my friends? I think so. Socially, there's, I think, a big impact. 00:02:21:12 - 00:03:03:15 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck I think cognitive early. There's an impact as well. And I think both a good thing and a not so good thing. I think kids who have a greater exposure to technology and social media and all of that sometimes lose or may not develop skills at the same time. And at the same pace at which kids who aren't exposed to that and they're just different skills like it developed, for example, you know, when we were kids and we had to or in high school and we had to write a paper or do something like that, we would have to go to the library and look the reference up in the delete decimals system or whatever it 00:03:03:15 - 00:03:27:12 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck was. Here kids go to the Internet, they type it in and they have a myriad of options. And then not only that, then the Internet suggests, Why don't you go here and why don't you go there? And so I think those deductive or induction skills, sometimes inductive skills, sometimes get impacted. So I think it changes the trajectory. 00:03:28:12 - 00:03:54:21 Adam Hocking And kids have more access to information, but perhaps they don't retain it as well, or they don't develop the skills that would come along with it. Like in my case, I was 18 when I first got my cell phone and it was a flip phone, so I wasn't racing through the Internet or anything like that. So I still had to do it, do homework and research in a more old school fashion where you have to perhaps put in more legwork. 00:03:55:05 - 00:04:02:16 Adam Hocking So maybe those skills of of kind of doing the legwork are lost, but you have access to more information. 00:04:03:05 - 00:04:24:05 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck Accurate. Very accurate. And when you have access to so much information. And so and just just the breadth of it. There's no way you can keep all of that information just in your head and, oh, gee, I don't have to remember this. I can just go to my phone, flip up. There it is. So. 00:04:24:13 - 00:04:50:09 Adam Hocking Yeah, I'm interested in the social component of kids. I mean, you can see pre-teens or teenagers sitting right next to each other on a couch, texting each other rather than speaking to each other or communicating through Facebook or Snapchat or Twitter. And and that seems to be replacing a great deal of face to face communication. What, in your opinion, is lost when children are living much of their lives digitally through their phones, especially their social lives? 00:04:50:11 - 00:05:25:14 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck Yeah, I think what gets lost in that interaction is the context is the facial cues, the body language, the mirror, you know, traditional or peer social aspect of it. So when you think about that, then children are not able to learn, How do I pick up on facial cues? How do I pick up on body language so that, gee, when somebody does this with their eyebrows or this with their body, I might have said the wrong thing or done the wrong thing. 00:05:25:20 - 00:05:55:06 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck So I think they lose that piece of it. The tone, I think of, you know, texting, you can't you can't or sometimes the tone is misinterpreted. There is no way sometimes to communicate the tone of a message. So I think they they lose that piece as well. The ebb and flow of natural socialization are lost in texting. 00:05:57:03 - 00:06:16:22 Adam Hocking What do you see as sort of the long term consequence of a generation that is raised socially, communicating through a device rather than using their bodies, using face to face interaction? Do you are you concerned about a I don't want to say a socially inept generation, but maybe a totally new social structure? 00:06:16:23 - 00:06:40:05 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck Yeah, I don't think it would be socially inept because I do think that I mean, just even look at generations before us. How we socialize right now is very different than how our parents socialized. We don't have TS And, you know, or get togethers in the living room and all of that sort of thing. It's even even now is different than a generation ago. 00:06:40:11 - 00:07:09:01 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck So I think how we socialize with each other, it's a natural sort of way. Our our culture changes. All cultures change in how they communicate and socialize with each other. There are going to be some lost skills. For example, letter writing. When is the last I mean, I don't think my kids have written a letter. You know, letter writing used to be the way to communicate with each other, but we're still socializing and we're still communicating with each other. 00:07:09:09 - 00:07:33:14 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck So I think there's going to be a give and take a sort of we're going to lose some, we're going to gain some skills, some, you know, because I don't want to paint kids having access to cell phones and access to social media and the Internet as all bad. I really don't think it is that. For example, I think of kids who are shy, kids who are social introverts. 00:07:33:14 - 00:07:51:05 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck This can be a really good way for those types of kids to reach out to their peers and to connect with their peers on a level that's comfortable for them. They don't have to sit face to face and look somebody in the eye and and be in the same room with them, and they can still feel connected to their peers. 00:07:51:11 - 00:07:57:18 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck So I think that's a real benefit of some of these forms of socialization. 00:07:58:13 - 00:08:22:00 Adam Hocking What does it do to identity for kids that are forming their identity as they're coming up through adolescence to have almost this ability to portray whoever they want themselves to be perceived as on social media where maybe they can't do that in person. It's almost like there's dueling identities at times. Have you? What are your thoughts on that? 00:08:22:20 - 00:09:02:08 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck I think that kids, as they develop their sense of themselves, they will always have periods that they go through that they want to pretend that they're somebody they might not be. I think of adolescence in particular as a phase of development where, you know what, I'm going to how do I put this? I think there's always facades that kids put forth when they're developing, whether it's because of I want to fit in or my self-esteem is a little lower and I don't want people to know this or if it's it makes them feel better to be somebody else. 00:09:02:18 - 00:09:26:23 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck So I think social media is just another avenue through which they can do that, and it probably makes it a little easier for them to pretend there's somebody else. But I think they do it in person, too. You know, I think kids will wear things, you know, will dress a certain way, will act a certain way when really on the inside, they probably aren't feeling that way all the time. 00:09:27:07 - 00:09:59:18 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck You know, they're walking through the halls and they're looking all confident and, you know, big dog on campus, whatever. But really inside, they might not be feeling that well. And I think as parents, you know, and I think this is the piece that we haven't talked about yet is what role that parents play in this. I think it's parents who play a critical role in letting them know and encouraging them to be themselves, you know, and to not try to pretend to be somebody else, you know, via social media or in person. 00:10:00:17 - 00:10:51:13 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck I think the biggest piece when I think about kids on social media, you know, whether it be Facebook or Twitter or Snapchat, I think the biggest discrepancy that can occur currently with that is how kids treat other kids in those modalities. I think it gives them a lot of protection, a lot of anonymity. And kids will say and do things via social media that they wouldn't dream of doing in person, using language that they wouldn't use in person with somebody talking about another peer, that they wouldn't have the guts to come up to this person and say this particular thing to that. 00:10:51:13 - 00:11:18:09 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck I think that discrepancy in that disconnect is probably an even bigger issue than I'm pretending to be this popular, you know, guy who's captain of the football team. And really, that's not reality. I think it's more of how they conduct themselves on social media versus how they conduct themselves in person. 00:11:18:22 - 00:11:45:00 Adam Hocking I think that's really interesting because and I think that goes for kids and adults. People act differently on social media. And it's interesting because that protection is there for the person that types a message that might be rude or condescending or more aggressive than they would be in person. And I think the sender senses that protection and maybe assumes that same layer of protection is there for for the recipient of the message. 00:11:45:06 - 00:11:52:06 Adam Hocking But people that receive nasty messages on social media take it as personally as if it were delivered in person. 00:11:52:07 - 00:11:53:00 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck Absolutely. 00:11:53:00 - 00:12:05:09 Adam Hocking So for the sender, it's like there's this protection there, but for the recipient, it's still just as harsh. So I just feel like maybe there's a breakdown and I don't know what effect that would have on the social fabric, especially for kids. 00:12:06:02 - 00:12:26:11 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck When I think of what impact this will have on the social fabric for kids. I think it's going to be pretty confusing for them. I think, you know, they'll go to school the next day and Janey is just said terrible things about me on the Internet and then she wants to sit next to me at lunch and she thinks that, oh, that's okay. 00:12:26:11 - 00:12:52:11 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck It was just online and it doesn't matter. I think it could be confusing. I think it could have a great impact on self-esteem, self-confidence, because especially younger children and teens, we know this, that they develop their sense of who they are and what they think about themselves, not just based upon internal variables, but also what other people tell them and what other people show them. 00:12:52:17 - 00:13:15:11 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck You know, are you smart? Are you pretty? Are you you know, they get their cues from their peers, from their parents, from their teachers. And so who our kids become is not just it doesn't occur in a vacuum. It occurs in the social context. So clearly, that's got to have an impact on their development and who they become as a person. 00:13:16:00 - 00:13:23:14 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck And again, I think this is a critical, critical crossroads for parents to become involved and be involved. 00:13:23:22 - 00:13:47:22 Adam Hocking And what do you suggest that parents do? I guess I'm interested. I mean, I have two kids and I'm on my phone a lot at home or interacting with my laptop or an iPad if I'm checking work, email or if I'm reading an article or just sitting there watching television. My four year old sees that and he wants to mimic everything that Daddy does at this point, including screen time. 00:13:47:22 - 00:13:55:07 Adam Hocking So when it's such a part of my life as an adult, what do I do to model behavior for my children? 00:13:56:06 - 00:14:19:03 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck Great question. And I think the rules that we have for our kids are the rules that we should follow as well. Some of the things that I would recommend to parents and even the American Academy of Pediatrics talks about this as well is, first of all, you know, you have limited time on electronic. Well, and we're talking about different mediums, too. 00:14:19:04 - 00:14:41:11 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck We're talking phones, we're talking tablets, we're talking computers. We can even talk screen time in terms of a TV. But first of all, there's limits. You don't have free access and unlimited access to electronics at my house. The kids get a half an hour in the morning and a half an hour in the afternoon, and then they're done during the school year. 00:14:41:17 - 00:15:06:18 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck During the week, it's much different. And it's away. It's it's not anywhere where they can see it. The second thing is, is especially for teenagers, all of this occurs in common areas of the home. They're not in there. They're not in their room, on their telephone. They're not in their room on their tablet. That leads that can lead to some very dangerous situations where they feel they have, again, this anonymity, this privacy. 00:15:07:21 - 00:15:31:00 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck And it it needs to be completely transparent with parents. You know, I tell teenagers, if you are not comfortable sharing what you're doing on social media with your parents, then you know what you're doing on social media is inappropriate. You know, whether it be verbally, whether it be visually, whatever. So it needs to be in a common area. 00:15:31:08 - 00:16:05:23 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck The second thing I tell parents is there's limits on time in terms of not during dinner time, not during family social time, and that it doesn't replace other activities. And I and that's a key I want to make sure we come back to that is I think that's a red flag for parents is when kids start to turn to their phones, turn to their tablets, turn to their computers, and they're doing that in place of doing other in-person social activities. 00:16:05:23 - 00:16:35:04 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck They're doing that in place of athletic events, in place of extracurriculars. Those are the red flags that, you know what? This is too muchness. The third thing, and this goes along with no electronics in their rooms, is at a certain time every night, no screen time. I like it. It's important to have it at least an hour before bedtime, whether it's a teenager going to bed at 11, after they're finishing their homework or whatever, or it's an 830 bedtime for little kids. 00:16:35:16 - 00:16:53:01 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck Everything goes and gets plugged in. There's chargers in the kitchen, in the wherever, again, in a common area. All of those go there. Teenagers will say to me, Oh, but I need my phone to wake up in the morning. It's my alarm. You can go to Walmart and buy $5 alarm clock and that will do the same trick. 00:16:53:07 - 00:17:19:22 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck So kids will. But you know, that phone will be buzzing all night. Text messages coming through or alerts coming through. Then it's disrupting sleep. You know, so having very concrete expectations, concrete rules for the kids. Now, going back to parents, your absolutely correct. You are a model for your kids about when in how we interact with our technology. 00:17:20:04 - 00:17:41:13 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck So it is important for you. You know what, Daddy doesn't have his phone at the dinner table when Daddy's watching TV or with you guys or playing with you guys. Daddy puts his phone away, you know, things like that. Not you. Having the same types of limits that your kids do is very important because they're going to pick up on that. 00:17:41:13 - 00:17:48:11 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck They're going to be like, well, why do you get to be on your tablet and on your phone? But I can't be can't have the double standards. 00:17:49:20 - 00:18:18:02 Adam Hocking I've heard that from my four year old. Now, you talk about I'm thinking specifically about a teenager telling a teenager that you use your phone when you're in my presence and you don't go use it in your room. But at the same time, I know one of the most quintessential things of being a teenager is that independence and social media is a tremendous outlet for that independence, because a lot of times your parents are on there, they can't see what you're doing. 00:18:18:06 - 00:18:31:15 Adam Hocking Yeah. So how do you have a conversation that helps fight that urge for the teenager to want to sneak around or be independent? How do you talk to them about about that? 00:18:31:16 - 00:18:57:23 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck Yeah, and I think it's a delicate balance between giving them their privacy and independence and protecting them. And parents should focus on the protection piece that there's a lot of predators out there on social media and on the Internet. And I think one of the heirs in that judge may be in judgment. Teens think that they know more than they know, but they don't know what they don't know. 00:18:58:04 - 00:19:19:22 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck And that's why parents need to be tech savvy. You know, I think of myself, my four year olds can navigate the iPad probably better than I can. That's not okay. I need to get more tech savvy than my kids are. And we need to know in order to be able to protect our kids. So I think talking to teens about this is not being, you know what? 00:19:19:22 - 00:19:44:07 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck I don't care if you're talking to Janie, your best friend, and what you guys are going to wear to the mall or whatever. It's the protection piece that making sure that they're being safe and that nobody is trying to victimize them. That's the important piece and to focus on that. Now, that being said, I also think it should be very transparent with teenagers that teenagers have the understanding that this is a privilege. 00:19:44:17 - 00:20:06:09 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck Having this phone, having this tablet, whatever device it is, is a privilege, because most likely, most teens, that device was bought by their parents, too. It's not something that, you know, is theirs and they're paying for the plan and all of that, that it's a privilege. And every privilege comes with responsibilities. And every privilege also comes with limits and boundaries. 00:20:06:09 - 00:20:40:09 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck You know, it's not it can't be a free rein thing. So I think it is an important and a delicate conversation to have with kids and to reassure them that they're not going to be looking over their shoulder every single minute. But you know what? We are going to be keeping tabs on this because I think once you start down that line of being sneaky and of hiding things from a parent, it's hard to turn that back around. 00:20:40:11 - 00:21:00:11 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck You know, it's hard to not be sneaky then. So it's a delicate balance that the teenager is given enough independence and enough privacy where they feel, okay, this is good, but the parent is there for their protection and for their safety. That that's a that's an important balance to maintain with kids. 00:21:01:05 - 00:21:30:03 Adam Hocking Our guest is Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck, a child psychologist at Marshfield Clinic. There was an article in the Atlantic titled Have Smartphones Ruined a Generation, and it was an interesting article and one of the things that that it said in there that rates of teen depression and suicide have skyrocketed since 2011, which is sort of this time period where, okay, kids are starting to be raised where there's a tablet in their hand or at least available to them by the time that they could use it. 00:21:30:03 - 00:21:44:09 Adam Hocking You know, and in the article it said it's not an exaggeration to describe I gen this generation as being on the brink of the worst mental health crisis in decades. Are you observing this same phenomenon in your work? 00:21:44:22 - 00:22:26:08 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck Yes and no. I think that have rates of anxiety and depression risen? Absolutely. Can we delineate and pinpoint why that is? I think that's a tougher question. I certainly think that kids who are more isolated, kids who avoid social interaction for reasons such as anxiety or depression, that social media or not even just social media, But yeah, that it makes it easier for them to do that because they can sit in their rooms by themselves with their computer and they can surf the Internet, they can go on Facebook and just just look at what other people are doing. 00:22:27:05 - 00:22:53:12 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck I do think that just our entire and again, this is a good thing and a bad thing, the not so good thing about being so connected and so wired in is that the good part of that is, is it puts it. It eliminates boundaries. It you know, it makes our world smaller and it makes us be it allows us to connect with other cultures. 00:22:53:12 - 00:23:10:05 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck Other times, other places. How wonderful for our kids to be able to do that. My child was on the Internet last night looking up the solar eclipse and how that's going to be and where it's going and what the weather patterns are going to be. You know, and it was a touch it was at 8:00 right before he wants to go to bed. 00:23:10:13 - 00:23:32:20 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck I didn't have to get in the car and drive to the library, up the libraries close. So what a wonderful, you know, window for him and exposure for him. On the same hand, I think it's also exposed our kids to a lot of things that they would not have been exposed to if we didn't have so much Internet access and media access. 00:23:33:02 - 00:23:55:16 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck You know, they also see the violence in the world. You know, they see the the terrorism. They see all of these scary things, which I think it can be very overwhelming for especially young children. They cognitively can understand, wow, these people, you know, in this other state where we're hitting each other and hurting each other and they really hate each other. 00:23:55:22 - 00:24:21:05 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck They can get that, but emotionally they can't manage that. So they have all of this this information that emotionally is very hard to manage. And so I think that's where we can also see an increase in that anxiety and that depression is, you know, oh, my gosh, is this going to happen to me? Whereas decades ago, all we'd have to do is turn the radio off, turn the TV off, and then we'd and they don't have that exposure. 00:24:21:16 - 00:24:44:13 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck So so that's so I think it's a good thing and that's a good thing. The other piece about what this article said is this, you know, ruining the generation. I think the other piece that sometimes happens is kids, for example, let's say they go on Facebook or they go on Snapchat or any of those social media sites where kids post what they're doing. 00:24:45:04 - 00:25:11:09 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck Kids are not generally going to post. My mom just grounded me. And, you know, bad things. Grownups do the same thing. You go on Facebook. Grown ups are posting all about how wonderful their lives are and how blessed they are and how much money that, you know, it's all sunshine and rainbows. And when a child sees those things in their life might not be no one's life is sunshine and rainbows. 00:25:11:09 - 00:25:36:17 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck But when a child sees that and they're like, Oh my gosh, I didn't get to do that, or they didn't invite me to that party, or I don't get to do that, that can also be very difficult when they don't really realize that's not reality. That's really a painted picture of reality, a sanitized picture of what this, you know, other child's reality probably is. 00:25:36:23 - 00:25:59:18 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck So that could also increase some of the depression mean, oh, well, I wasn't out doing that. So I think there's you know again there's there's some goodness with its connecting us as a world but then children of a younger age particularly it might be a too muchness for them. 00:25:59:21 - 00:26:21:05 Adam Hocking I think it was in that same Atlantic article that it said that kids are now safer, they're having sex later for the first time, they're less likely to get into a car accident and drink underage. Maybe that's the other side of the coin of this sort of social isolation, If that's the case, is that a good trade off in your mind? 00:26:22:07 - 00:26:51:11 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck It might be a good trade off. I think we come back to a word that I really want to make sure that we talk. You know, that is heard today is it's balance that every that it's so important to have balance in these exposures. We also want art. We want our kids in some respects, okay? We don't want them getting in car accidents and, you know, teenage pregnancies and all of that. 00:26:51:18 - 00:27:18:12 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck I also think there also is some value in kids learning how to take risks and what are risks I want to take. What are risks I don't want to take? How do I resist these risks? So if I'm out with my friends and my friends say, Oh, come on, let's go do that. I think it you know, exposure to those situations isn't necessarily a bad thing because we want our kids to. 00:27:18:13 - 00:27:42:22 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck I know this sounds strange, but we want them to fail on little things when they're little so that they know first how to handle that failure in that risk. And later on they can so that as they grow older, they know how to say, you know what, that's not a risk I want to take. So in some respects it is a nice trade off in that our kids are safer, our kids aren't engaging in as many of these high risk behaviors. 00:27:43:03 - 00:28:07:21 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck However, it doesn't mean they're not going to be exposed to them at some age. And do we want them to be exposed to some of these things when they're younger? They're in our homes. We can see what's happening. We can maybe help them be able to avoid them or problem solve them so that they don't get into that car accident so they don't end up being pregnant in, you know, or engaging in sexual activity. 00:28:07:22 - 00:28:44:22 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck So some of those things, again, I think it's a balance act that we need to we need to to do, because I think being on the Internet and being out there for, you know, everyone in a sense brings with it other inherent risks that weren't present decades ago. You know, you can invite a stranger into your home, essentially, You know, your six year old can be on an Internet site and be telling them their address and their phone number. 00:28:44:22 - 00:29:10:21 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck And so there's other risks, I think, that do come with such access to the to the Internet and social media and things like that that parents need to be aware of. Sure, they might not it might not be the don't speed. And, you know, all of that. It may be a it's a different set of risks. I think kids might not be getting in as many car accidents. 00:29:10:21 - 00:29:23:10 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck They might not be engaging in, you know, sex at earlier ages. But there could be other risks that that come with that. 00:29:24:10 - 00:29:46:17 Adam Hocking Do you feel like this technology is changing the development curve for kids? I I'm not sure where I saw it the other day. It might have been a report on the news talking about how companies are starting to view people in their early twenties as sort of adults coming of age, whereas you used to be when you were 21, you were an adult. 00:29:46:17 - 00:30:05:00 Adam Hocking A lot of times people were getting married in their early twenties. My my folks I think, got married at age 20 or 21. It seems like even though we have access to more information and the ability to really know anything we want, kids are developing later, you see kids staying at home with their parents more often after college. 00:30:05:11 - 00:30:09:21 Adam Hocking Are you noticing that as well, that the development curve maybe is changing a little bit? 00:30:10:01 - 00:30:36:04 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck I think so. However, I'm not sure that it's due so much to, you know, the Internet and social media and technology and all that. That may be more an artifact of where we're at financially and where our country is. You know, kids aren't being they're not able to get jobs as easily straight out of college or, you know, years and years ago, you could get a job out of high school, you know, and that was your income and that was your livelihood. 00:30:36:10 - 00:30:58:07 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck So I think overall and I'm not sure what the variables are contributing to this, but you call it adolescence and older adolescence absolutely has grown the age, you know, and humans have the longest adolescence ever. I mean, look at birds and other animals. You get kicked out of the nest and you're on your own. Yeah, humans aren't that way. 00:30:58:11 - 00:31:17:04 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck So I think that's generally been a trend that adolescence is longer and longer and longer. And I'm not sure if it's related to this or if it's just an artifact of, you know, where, you know, financially where our, you know, culture is right now. Hmm. 00:31:18:14 - 00:31:43:17 Adam Hocking My last question, I'm curious what you think sort of and we've touched on it a bit. The broader affect will be on society 30 years from now when people that are my age or your age are you know, our kids today are now 30 and 40 and 50 and running the world, running companies in the government. And they've been raised interacting with each other in this sort of digital way. 00:31:44:17 - 00:31:53:15 Adam Hocking And I know you're not an anthropologist, but I guess I'm just curious what your thoughts are and what the broader effect of society on society will be 30, 40 years from now. 00:31:54:21 - 00:32:17:12 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck I think at that point, we we won't notice that, oh my goodness, this is so different. It'll become a new norm. Just like right now. The way we communicate, the way we interact is a new norm, and older folks are like, we never used to do it that way. But for us it's typical. And for us it's it's just a way of being. 00:32:17:22 - 00:32:44:09 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck There'll be certain things that will be lost, certain ways, certain social skills, maybe, or interpersonal skills will be lost, but other skills will be gained as well. So I think it will, you know, 30 years from now, it'll I don't think it will be seen as, oh my goodness, look at what this has done to our society, because I think it will be just the new norm and and how things have developed. 00:32:44:19 - 00:33:13:11 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck And I think no matter what generation you're talking about, you know, the tech generation that we're in right now or the AI generation, if you want to call it that, I think the key is that when you're parenting and when you're talking about the impact that these types of this type of technology, this this type of expansion has on kids, parents have to be involved. 00:33:13:14 - 00:33:53:14 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck They have to be knowledgeable and they have to have good balance with that. They have to be very observant, you know, and it doesn't matter if it's right. Now, we're talking about social media and Internet and technology or if it's generations ago and you're talking about rock and roll and, you know, all of that sort of things. Parents, parents need to be involved in their kids lives and have a knowledge of how this is impacting them so that it can kids can use this and kids can be a part of this without it harming them. 00:33:53:14 - 00:34:18:20 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck They they can have all the benefits of social media and the benefits of technology and the Internet, but they're not going to be harmed by it. And I think that's where parents come in in terms of making sure there's limits, making sure that they're aware of where their kids are at and what their kids are doing, explaining, you know, helping them understand what's what's out there. 00:34:19:05 - 00:34:25:04 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck And so I think if it's right now or 30 years from now, that's going to be an important piece. 00:34:25:22 - 00:34:28:02 Adam Hocking Do you have any parting thoughts that you'd like to share with us? 00:34:28:23 - 00:35:02:05 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck I think just that that sentiment of not villainizing social media and but also being cautious with our kids and how they access it and how they use it. I think I think that that's the key. The more involved we are, the better balance. I go back to that word balance again. If we notice changes and unbalancing cash, we need to think about that a little bit. 00:35:02:19 - 00:35:04:09 Adam Hocking Dr. Kohlbeck, thank you for joining us. 00:35:04:10 - 00:35:06:17 Dr. Stephanie Kohlbeck You're welcome. 00:35:12:14 - 00:35:38:05 Adam Hocking The Rounds is produced by Ryan Maderic and supported by the Marketing and Communications department of Marshfield Clinic Health System. You can subscribe to The Rounds and download episodes via iTunes or by visiting Shine365.MarshfieldClinic.org. I'm Adam Hocking and I hope you'll join us next time on The Rounds.